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#1 Konstantin [ 2187 132 ] : 2015-12-16 23:18:59 How to get money back from Paypal when seller send fake CD.
This post is just translation based on Buing a

Seller: via second account
Goods: Original 1st pressing CD by Shah "Beware" (Atom H, 1989)
Item link: Not available due to much time passed.
Paid via:

This already oudated story raised here only to show, how it is possible to resist slles, who want to ripoff you with fake CD's.

So, once i found very rare and expensive CD, which i was looking for long time. It cost 80 euros with buy it now option. Original seller was new seller with only one positive feedback or even zero feedback. Loonking on pictures I decided that CD is original, due to picture was made from original, or found on web.

I bought it, and asked him to provide payment adress (originally there was only Bank payment). Payment details were received on 27.08.2013, and item paid.
When we discussed payment method, I received answer from, what gives me reason to bind these sellers.

23.09.2013, after month of wating, C was received. When I opened it I found that item is different to picture provided in item description and is russian (moscow) fake CD, which costs 200 RUR (about 5-6 euros these days) at russian (now closed), and the same day, even same hour I opened dispute at

Unfortunately, I don't remember if I appealed this through, but even if I done, it wasn't resolved there, as it usually happens with support.

Those who tried to do the same should already know, that all disputes about counterfreit item usually decided in favour of seller (maybe except Chinese sellers...), so in most cases buyer just  leave this seller lone with negative feedback for some other reason or try to get refund under "significantly different item" reason. But I decided to go hard way, and opened "Counterfreit item" dispute. Maybe if was some kind of "Need of retribution" state.

Starting from this moment I fall into routine which leads me to where it should lead: Seller wins. bagan its investigation in their typical slow manner. I wrote all i think about this deal, send them all pictures, showed them differences between sold item and received, showed different resources about it, showed other discussions about this same seller, found on the web. But all of that was useless. just asked to provide official answer from rights owner or other possible responsible person (store, lable, retalier), who can confirm it. Considering my originally released only once in 1989 by already closed lable ATOM H records and pressed on unknown plant (with P+O signification) this case was very unusual.

I remembered, that ATOM H label leaded by german musician (Die Krupps leading member and SPV official manager), so i decided to contact him on the first hand. I think he wasn't care of this and after few useless requests I was quit without any connection.

Forgetting Engler, I started to find other ways to complete dispute. I knew that currently right on this album  owned by russian lable Metalism Records, but owner told he don't care of fakes spread via ebay and other auctions/stores.

After that I decided to contact paypal by phone and told all I gathered at the time to delay decision. I contacted them several times with every new step. In the end they told me to provide any possible confirmation from local or other reseller, who can confirm that item is fake, but this should be official company with phones ad other contacts. I found such one and delivered scans of signed papers to paypal.
Despite this Paypal deiceide case into favour of seller, and same day seller put his answer under my feedback.

But it doesn't stopped me, and I told Paypal, that i'm going to prove that i'm right, and it can take effect on Paypal by russian law by taking major part in fraud, since i'm going to appeal this case in police and consumer rights protection.
So, case was closed, but few days before I found pressing plant and contacted them using email. It was originally west german plant, currently known as Pallas group.
I received answer from manager Patrick Roll, who was a bit amazed about this case, and couldn't understand how he can help. After some negotiations we found that archives of old masters were destroyed in fire time ago, and we dealt that i will send him my sample.
What I made some time after Paypal closed case,  tracking number: RA417969276RU, and on 04.12.2013 I received Patrick answered that they prepare official documents. 10.12.2013 got electronic copy of this document, which confirms that item not orginal.

Cannot tell now why, but I send this official answer to paypal only on 17.02.2014, perhaps i was waiting for real papers to go to consumer right protection. Before it was sent to paypal I called them and told that I do have papers and going to go to police (since item cost more that 1000RUB) and consumer right protection,.

After 9 days (26.02.2013) i received mail from paypal (I think i called else few times before this) that me case will be reinstated, and after few days i received new mail, which asked me to send them fax, where I should sign that i destroyed this item (i already received it from P+O plant).

3.03.2014 I received refund of complete payment 86Euros (including shipping), but this was not all, because i spent monet to send item to plant, so i asked to send compensation of postal charges.
They send it same day in value of 1.58 Euros, which was really under real shipping price for registered airmail.

I'm not really sure if Paypal punished this seller, and paid me own money for their errors, due to both of sellers accounts are still on and still sells fakes for unreasonable price. It's need just look their feedback and roll it few years back to see old feedbacks.

In the end of this old story I want to thank Patrick Roll from Pallas Group, who did not refuse to help me with this unusual case for them.

p.s. Ffor justice, Jurgen Engler contacted me few days back, so i think all should be well now:)
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